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Toughest Venues: Recap
Posted by Charlie on Jun 02, 2008 |
It was really a surprise that Ohio State won the inaugural 2008 Toughest Venues trophy. There was little doubt Penn State would have won this by a landslide when we began this series. But after actual objective (and subjective) evaluation of what actually matters in a home field environment, we were faced with a harsh reality. We were beaten once again by the Buckeyes.
But as disheartening as it sounds, Beaver Stadium was edged out by a venue that propelled the Buckeyes to two national title appearances in a row.
So with that in mind, we present to you the complete results of the Toughest Venues list:
| Attendance | Tradition/History | Fans | Venue | Win/Loss record | Total | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Ohio State | 9 | 9 | 9 | 11 | 11 | 49 |
| Penn State | 10 | 10 | 10 | 9 | 8 | 47 |
| Wisconsin | 8 | 7 | 11 | 10 | 10 | 46 |
| Michigan | 11 | 11 | 5 | 6 | 9 | 42 |
| Iowa | 7 | 5 | 7 | 8 | 7 | 34 |
| Michigan St | 5 | 8 | 6 | 7 | 6 | 32 |
| Purdue | 6 | 3 | 8 | 5 | 5 | 27 |
| Minnesota | 4 | 6 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 22 |
| Illinois | 2 | 4 | 2 | 3 | 2 | 13 |
| Indiana | 3 | 1 | 3 | 1 | 1 | 9 |
| Northwestern | 1 | 2 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 9 |
The following is a collection of tables with data used to aid us in making our decision for our Toughest Venues list. The numbers only helped us in our decision making.
But as we were clear to mention in the start of this series, numbers aren’t everything. A team with more 100+% attendance seasons does not necessarily qualify them above a team with less.
Example: Ohio State managed to filled its stadium beyond capacity all 5 seasons, while Penn State had 3 seasons where average attendance were short of its official capacity. Did Ohio State automatically deserve to be ranked above Penn State in the attendance category?
Not really. Even with average attendance just short of capacity, you have to take the varying stadium capacities into account. Even during the 3 seasons where Penn State had average attendance of less than 107,282, they still drew in more fans per game than Ohio State when they filled Ohio Stadium beyond capacity in 2 of the 3 seasons.
Then there are the two categories, FANS and VENUE that was entirely subjective. Yes, we provided a data table for the Fans category, but it was just a guideline.
ATTENDANCE:
| Capacity | 2007 | 2006 | 2005 | 2004 | 2003 | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Michigan (11) | 107,501 | 110,264 | 110,026 | 110,915 | 111,024 | 110,918 |
| Penn State (10) | 107,282 | 108,917 | 107,567 | 104,859 | 103,110 | 105,629 |
| Ohio State (9) | 102,329 | 105,110 | 105,096 | 105,017 | 104,876 | 104,870 |
| Wisconsin (8) | 80,321 | 81,747 | 81,368 | 82,551 | 82,368* | 78,486* |
| Iowa (7) | 70,585 | 70,585 | 70,586 | 70,585 | 70,397 | 65,798 |
| Purdue (6) | 62,500 | 59,326 | 64,699 | 62,996 | 63,548 | 58,597 |
| Michigan State (5) | 75,005 | 70,540 | 71,104 | 75,175 | 73,602 | 72,830 |
| Minnesota (4) | 64,121 | 51,791 | 52,207 | 49,032 | 47,573 | 44,148 |
| Indiana (3) | 52,354 | 37,004 | 33,063 | 39,536 | 28,377 | 34,983 |
| Illinois (2) | 71,000 | 54,872 | 43,445 | 47,852 | 48,626 | 50,961 |
| Northwestern (1) | 47,130 | 24,589 | 27,996 | 32,527 | 28,408 | 28,763 |
RED: seasons with average attendance below official capacity.
* The official capacity of Camp Randall during the 2004 and 2003 seasons was 76,129 due to restructuring in the student section.
TRADITION/HISTORY:
| First season | National Titles | Heismans | All-Americans | Post-season record | All time record (%) | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Michigan (11) | 1879 | 11 | 3 | 76 | 19-20 | 869-286-36 (.745) |
| Penn State (10) | 1887 | 2 | 1 | 107 | 27-11-2 | 790-346-42 (.688) |
| Ohio State (9) | 1890 | 7 | 7 | 173 | 18-21 | 798-303-53 (.714) |
| Michigan State (8) | 1896 | 3 | 0 | 73 | 7-11 | 592-403-44 (.569) |
| Wisconsin (7) | 1889 | 0 | 2 | - | 10-8 | 577-451-53 (.534) |
| Minnesota (6) | 1882 | 6 | 1 | 69 | 5-7 | 620-450-44 (.579) |
| Iowa (5) | 1889 | 0 | 1 | 60 | 11-10-1 | 559-505-39 (.507) |
| Illinois (4) | 1890 | 4 | 0 | 15 | 6-9 | 595-456-49 (.541) |
| Purdue (3) | 1887 | 0 | 0 | 19 | 8-7 | 558-473-48 (.539) |
| Northwestern (2) | 1876 | 0 | 0 | - | 1-5 | 449-596-44 (.412) |
| Indiana (1) | 1887 | 0 | 0 | - | 3-6 | 431-591-44 (.425) |
FANS:
| Total attendance (home games) | # of Home games | Possible attendance | Venue capacity | % filled | # of students | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Wisconsin (11) | 2,680,724 | 33 | 2,650,593 | 80,321 | 101.1% | 10,500 |
| Penn State (10) | 3,612,472 |
34 | 3,647,588 | 107,282 | 99.0% | 21,520 |
| Ohio State (9) | 3,674,792 |
35 | 3,581,515 | 102,329 | 102.6% | 25,000 * NL |
| Purdue (8) | 1,972,922 | 32 | 2,000,000 | 62,500 | 98.6% | NL |
| Iowa (7) | 2,224,081 | 32 | 2,258,720 | 70,585 | 98.5% | 10,000 |
| Michigan State (6) | 2,393,981 | 33 | 2,475,165 | 75,005 | 96.7% | NL |
| Michigan (5) | 3,871,281 | 35 | 3,762,535 | 107,501 | 102.9% | 20,000 * NL |
| Minnesota (4) | 1,561,178 | 32 | 2,051,872 | 64,121 | 76.1% | NL |
| Indiana (3) | 1,061,469 | 31 | 1,622,974 | 52,354 | 65.4% | NL |
| Illinois (2) | 1,566,607 | 32 | 2,272,000 | 71,000 | 69.0% | NL |
| Northwestern (1) | 878,288 | 31 | 1,461,030 | 47,130 | 60.1% | NL |
*Michigan sells just about 20,000 student tickets a season. Michigan does not limit ticket sales to students. A seat is guaranteed to every student that wants to buy a ticket.
NL: No limit. These schools have no cap on the number of tickets sold to student. Most of these institutions have trouble selling all of their tickets to begin with.
WIN/LOSS RECORD:
| Overall Home Record (vs ranked) | 2007 | 2006 | 2005 | 2004 | 2003 | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 1. Ohio State | 32-3 (9-2) | 6-1 (1-0) | 7-0 (2-0) | 6-1 (3-1) | 5-1 (1-1) | 8-0 (2-0) |
| 2. Wisconsin | 29-4 (3-2) | 7-0 (1-0) | 7-0 (0-0) | 5-1 (1-0) | 6-0 (0-0) | 4-3 (1-2) |
| 3. Michigan | 29-6 (6-3) | 5-3 (1-1) | 7-0 (0-0) | 4-3 (1-2) | 6-0 (2-0) | 7-0 (2-0) |
| 4. Penn State | 25-9 (4-5) | 6-1 (1-1) | 6-1 (0-1) | 7-0 (3-0) | 3-3 (0-1) | 3-4 (0-2) |
| 5. Iowa | 25-6 (5-2) | 4-2 (1-0) | 4-3 (0-2) | 5-1 (1-0) | 5-0 (1-0) | 7-0 (3-0) |
| 6. Michigan State | 17-14 (3-5) | 5-2 (0-1) | 2-5 (0-2) | 3-3 (0-1) | 4-2 (2-0) | 3-2 (1-1) |
| 7. Purdue | 23-10 (1-5) | 5-2 (0-1) | 5-2 (0-1) | 3-3 (0-1) | 4-2 (0-2) | 6-1 (1-0) |
| 8. Minnesota | 18-13 (1-7) | 1-6 (0-2) | 4-2 (0-1) | 4-2 (1-2) | 4-1 (0-1) | 5-2 (0-1) |
| 9. Northwestern | 18-12 (3-4) | 5-2 (0-0) | 2-4 (0-1) | 4-2 (1-1) | 5-1 (2-0) | 2-3 (0-2) |
| 10. Illinois | 12-20 (2-10) | 5-1 (2-1) | 1-6 (0-2) | 2-4 (0-3) | 3-4 (0-3) | 1-5 (0-1) |
| 11. Indiana | 15-16 (2-5) | 5-2 (0-0) | 3-4 (1-1) | 3-3 (0-1) | 2-3 (1-1) | 2-4 (0-2) |
Would you have ranked the venues any differently? What is your top 11 toughest Big Ten venues?
by Chaddogg, on June 2 2008 @ 11:09 am
How exactly did Minnesota get the edge against Northwestern in Overall home record? NU has a better record at their venue, as well as a better record vs. ranked teams….
I know it makes no difference to our overall ranking as the worst venue, but we deserve respect for playing well in our venue (and clearly better than Minnesota at theirs).
(We’re also better than Michigan State, too….I should point out)
by admin, on June 2 2008 @ 2:37 pm
Northwestern’s non conference home wins in the last 5 years?
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Northeastern, Nevada, Eastern Michigan (x2), Ohio, and Northern Illinois.
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With losses to a 1-win 2007 Duke squad (1-11 ACC), Div I-AA New Hampshire (4-4 CAA) just in the last 2 seasons at Ryan Field.
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Losses to Arizona State (5-3 Pac-10) in 2004, Air Force (3-4 MWC) in 2003, and a ranked Miami (OH) in 2003 to round out the last 5 seasons.
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Minnesota AND Michigan State almost always wins at home against inferior non-conference opponents. The exception is Minnesota this past season under a brand new head coach and Michigan State who has their annual matchup with Notre Dame.
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But Northwestern, though they rack up the wins, continue to drop games to inferior opponents at home during their non-conference portion of the schedule. Do not try to tell me that Div-I AA New Hampshire is tough.
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To gain respect in the win/loss column Northwestern must win the games they should win especially when they are paying schools like New Hampshire and Duke to play them at home. That’s why they sit below Minnesota and Michigan State.
by Massey, on June 3 2008 @ 7:39 pm
I do not see how see PSU can have a better fan score than Ohio state in the first graph when they do not even sell out all of their games. That makes no sense. I think Penn State has great fans, but even South Carolina sells out every game. Come on.
by Larry Biittner, on June 5 2008 @ 11:18 am
Isn’t this a ranking of venues rather than of programs? Minnesota should be dead last in Tradition/History. Or does having Mike Ditka ridicule your stadium count as a positive?
Where are you getting your All-American numbers? As you note, Wisconsin has produced two Heisman winners. Northwestern produced the best offensive back in the history of the conference. Yet both schools get a dash under All-Americans? That’s kind of lame.
Finally, and it pains me to say it because Penn State is a much more likeable program with infinitely more likeable fans, but Ohio State should be ranked second in the Tradition/History table.
by admin, on June 5 2008 @ 6:28 pm
Seems like the general consensus is that we got things wrong with the Tradition/History category in regards to Penn State and Ohio State.
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We reviewed the numbers here at Nittany White Out and had the numbers been switched between the Lions and Buckeyes, the Buckeyes would still be in the top spot with 50 points.
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Interestingly, the Lions would be forced into a 2 way tie for second with Wisconsin at 46 points a piece. That was just an interesting bit we figure we’d like to share. But unfortunately we stand by our numbers and ranking though we do understand where most of you are coming from.
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We made our best attempt to argue ranking Ohio State below Penn State in the Tradition/History category in the Ohio Stadium post.
by stvharding, on June 6 2008 @ 2:42 pm
You did a fantastic job with this poll. The research was top notch and the information was complete. One thing I would argue is the attendance reasoning.
Filling the stadium to less then capacity should count against the institution more than the total number of fans i.e. the ranking of PSU and OSU in the attendance category.
I would switch OSU and UM in tradition, but, your arguments are sound and make your point well.
by darren, on June 6 2008 @ 3:00 pm
Maybe im misinterpreting something, but putting an NL on OSU for student tickets is absolutely absurd. student season tickets were sold out about 5 minutes into the window for freshmen to obtain them last year…
and how does PSU rank about osu in tradition? just because of a better bowl record? come on…thats just silly.
other than my obvious homer gripes, decent composition. good job.
by MoCeltics33, on June 6 2008 @ 3:22 pm
penn state ranked above ohio state in the tradition category? LAUGHABLE.
by Scott K, on June 6 2008 @ 3:53 pm
Thank you MoCeltics33. No way Penn St gets ranked above the Buckeyes in tradition category. And why does Wisconsin have the “best” fans? Because they throw urine and batteries at opposing fans?
by admin, on June 6 2008 @ 5:40 pm
Or we could have gone with the “culture of rioting” at Ohio State. Direct quote by Former Ohio State president Karen A. Holbrook when referring to Buckeye football games.
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Or should we have awarded the best fans to Penn State and their reputation as a classy bunch. Oh, but wait, what about the incident with 2 Ohio State fans attacked by a Penn State fraternity?
http://www.wjactv.com/news/14471525/detail.html?rss=john&psp=news
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The point being, there are notoriously bad fans and behavior everywhere. Even Northwestern. Yet this category was a judgment call we made and stand by. But just so you know, throwing “urine and batteries” isn’t even the worst of it.
by Steve K, on June 6 2008 @ 8:50 pm
So Ohio State has more national titles, more Heismans, more All Americans, more all time wins, and a better win% yet a better Bowl Record gives Penn State an edge in Tradition/History?
And Penn State didn’t even reach capacity three of the five years looked at and it has better fans? Ohio State could probably sell 150,000 tickets a game. Penn State couldn’t say that over the last five years. As Buckeye Commentary points out, apparently everyone wearing White counts for a lot then.
Also, do Crowds at Indiana and Northwestern that are 80% Ohio State fans count for or against those schools Venues?
by matt, on June 7 2008 @ 6:03 pm
Great research. I think you have everything right, except of course the tradition statistics that you cite seem to unequivocally place Ohio State above PSU, despite the Lions impressive post-season record.
But come one, 11 national titles for Michigan? I just have a tough time swallowing that one. If they’ve only earned two in the last 60 years, that really drops them low on the tradition scale.
Still, I think the overall shake out got it right; OSU, then PSU, then Wisconsin, and then Michigan as a distant fourth.